Diesel and WVO (Full Version)

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Diesel and WVO

  

tomo -> Diesel and WVO (1/23/2008 11:15:56 AM)

this is a fabulous thread. and I thank each of you who contributed. My knowledge base concerning diesels and WVO conversion started at 0 and is now up to at least 3 (on a 10 scale). I am certain that the more I read and reread the more I will understand. The chassis and engine displacement discussion was hugely enlightening.

I'm looking for a 300 to do my first conversion. My wife runs a sustainable building materials supply and design service, and I think it would be fabulous for her to drive a VO car.

I know many tips are scattered throughout this site, and I plan to keep reading. But if you have positive or negative experiences to pass along, I'd love to know.

Also, I'll keep watching for someone selling a 300 -- converted or not. But if you have one and want to give me a heads-up, please do.

thanks, tomo
(currently driving a 95 town car with 215K but ready to convert)

  
ForcedInduction -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/23/2008 2:20:03 PM)

Just keep in mind that it is illegal to use WVO or SVO. If you are caught you can be hit with a large fine and possible felony and/or misdemeanor excise and sales tax evasion charges.

Zulucowboy -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/23/2008 11:38:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ForcedInduction

Just keep in mind that it is illegal to use WVO or SVO. If you are caught you can be hit with a large fine and possible felony and/or misdemeanor excise and sales tax evasion charges.


Wow, is that a fact for all states in the US? Do they not have consessions etc, record keeping etc. Is bona fide Bio Diesel allowed or must you get registered or something like that.

ForcedInduction -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/24/2008 2:40:25 AM)

Some states have made it possible to pay taxes on it however WVO and SVO are still illegal in the entire USA, no matter what the individual states pass. Here is the letter from the EPA:
quote:

From: Russo.Rebecca@epamail.epa.gov
Subject: Re: not sure if WVO/SVO is approved to be used as an on-road fuel
Date: December 31, 2007 10:22:01 AM MST

Hello Lance,
Thank you for your e-mail concerning using waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil as a fuel to power your diesel vehicle. Waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil cannot legally be used in vehicles. Raw vegetable oil or recycled greases (also called waste cooking oil) that have not been processed into esters are not biodiesel, and are not registered by EPA for legal use in vehicles. In addition, vehicles converted to use these oils would likely need to be certified by the EPA; to date EPA has not certified any conversions. These conversions may also violate the terms of the vehicle warranty. For more information on the certification process, please visit EPA's Web site at: www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/cisd0602.pdf

Biodiesel (for example B20) is a great fueling option. You can find information on biodiesel at our website: http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandgo/documents/factsheet-biodiesel.htm

Also, please find below a link to biodiesel.org and a fact sheet on the difference between biodiesel and vegetable oil. Using straight vegetable oil in your vehicle can harm your vehicle and negate your vehicle warranty.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/

If you have any further questions, please feel free to give me a call at 303-312-6757.

Rebecca Russo
EPA Region 8
Air Quality Planning & Management Unit
Ph: (303) 312-6757

sfk -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/24/2008 11:05:41 AM)

 
I have done a bit of research on this also.  So far I am not aware of the EPA enforcing the above letter. 

I work in the Environmental area.  If you EVER ask the DEP or the EPA ANYTHING that is questionable, they will ALWAYS say NO! (unless it comes down to a legal challenge).

Here's the issue for the EPA.  WVO is generally free.  How does a person pay for a tax on something that is free.
If you could burn dirt from your own property, can the government charge you tax on it? 

Now this is different than if you SELL WVO.  In that case you are making an income off of it and then they you would be more likely required to pay the tax on it to others.  (Although I haven't found any cases on that either YET).

In terms of whether it makes the EPA emmissions, well, the EPA would have to determine that your car is not making the standards.

My opionion on this is IF the EPA chooses to actually prosecute someone who uses a recycled, free substance, that would normally go to the dump (and in the decaying process emit the same emmissions as the car it is being burned in.  Well, I think there would be political backlash. 

I do think the Environmentalist should push for strong languauge to encourage this in the future.  (I know there is a lot of movement to get bio's in diesel).

EPA has enough of a hard time with going after those who really pollute.

My oppinion on this is, if anyone does get prosecuted for this, I am willing to make a nice contribution to fight the EPA.

With all that said, what I recommend is that you have a neighbor buy the conversion kit for you.  You pay cash.  Convert the car.  In the unlikely event you are "caught", I will be happy to help support you.  (if your willing to fight for a worthy cause).

Note:  I am an engineer.  The WVO when thrown in the garbage and goes to the dump emits the same emmissions. (eventually into CO2).  By the way, Where did this Carbon come from.  Well, the plants get it from the air.  In short, it is the best form of recycling.  Not even solar panels have the same environmental positive impact. (solar panels are extremely toxic).

Ohh, one last thing.  Have you ever heard of a cop checking fuel tanks, send out samples to determine if it is WVO?  (though I have heard of them verifying it is not red diesel).

Scott
Hey, some things are worth fighting for.

Zulucowboy -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/25/2008 1:44:11 AM)

What I find really interesting, and as a complete out sider, from another continent, why on earth do the EPA have to inform you about vehicle warranties, and actually mentioning it and then giving you a website to try and discourage you from using it, IMHO, I think there is some kind of colusion between manufacturers and lawmakers... I suggest you have a look at WWW.FRYBRID.COM and make your own decision...

ForcedInduction -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/25/2008 3:12:47 AM)

The EPA has nothing to do with taxing, that is up to the IRS and local/state regulations. The purchase price has nothing to do with taxing.

quote:

Note: I am an engineer. The WVO when thrown in the garbage and goes to the dump emits the same emissions.

Incorrect. Waste oil is collected and disposed of properly. Some is used in cosmetics, some in power generation and some is sold to BioDiesel producers. Very little actually goes to the dump. Carbon and CO2 are not pollutants or harmful emissions, their release has no negative impact on the environment. Yes kiddies, you were lied to about global warming, it is not our fault, it is not CO2's fault, and there is nothing humanly possible that can prevent/alter/reverse it.

Cops certainly can report it, problem is that most are ignorant of what WVO even is let alone how to check for it or what to do about it. Most of them even falsely believe it is okay to use it.
Feel free to report any violations to the Enforcement Office contact, Jack McLaughlin. Mclaughlin.Jackj@epamail.epa.gov

n4hen -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/25/2008 2:11:46 PM)

I have used wvo and biodiesel in several vehicles.  If you don't flaunt the fact you are using it, you may go unnoticed.  As foced induction says, most cops haven't a clue on what wvo is or it's legality.  I work in the HVAC field among many laws concerning what is released in the air.  EPA is under funded, over extended, and understaffed to enforce every law it publishes.  In fact, there are many out there still blowing refrigerant straight in the atmosphere, getting caught, and the epa saying "we don't have the resources to pursue this". 

I have heard of a hand full of cases, mainly in the carolinas where people have been fined for running unauthorized fuels.  Biodiesel board lawyers were quick to jump on board these suits offering free legal assistance. 

Here's the point.  Fuel prices are crazy now.  You can run WVO in older benz cars fairly easy.  Is it illegal, sure. Will you get caught, probably not.  Can you get caught, yes.  You take the risk running it.  Does it run as good as diesel, no.  Will it run, yes.  is it cost effective versus diesel, yes.  is it easy to keep up with, no.  You have to change filters frequently, pump and clean the oil, keep the oil up to temperature, make sure you don't shut it down with it in the pump, monitor the system constantly.  It is a hastle, but has saved me thousands. 

If you piece the system together, buying parts off ebay or other sites, you can make a reliable system for under 300.  is it good for these cars, no it's not.  if it is not done right, it will clog the system, cause buildups, and damage the engine.  But if you buy a 25 yr old car with 250k miles on it for 800, get 50k miles on wvo, save yourself 5000 in fuel costs, how much have you really lost when she craps out???  rebuild it and get another 50k. 

Listen to the opinions, both positive and negative and make your own judgement decision

Hope this helps

sfk -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/26/2008 5:36:58 AM)

Wow,

Thanks!  Those were great posts and hit the nail on the head.  Note:  Particularly about the EPA.  I do know that under the law, if you spill 2 ozs (that is 1/6 of a 12 oz soda can), onto the ground, you are also under the law required to notify the EPA (actually administered through the DEP).  Point is, if you send them the letter, yes, you'll get a negative response and yes, the letter was more focussed on car warranties.

In terms of most WVO, I can tell you personally, that EVERY place I have stopped at to date has been throwing it out in normal garbage,  That even includes a "Friendly'' chain restaurant.  100's of gallons each month.  I have stopped at Blimpee's, and local chinese shops.

Second, I have found several websites that have shown that diesels actually run "cleaner" (not faster) on WVO.  Keep in mind that DIESEL originally DESIGNED the this engine to burn on corn oil.  That was the intent.  It obviously runs better on normal "diesel" FO (also called #2 FO) because it has slightly higher BTU content but that's it.

To also clarify, I think there is a reason why you see differences in opinions about burning WVO in Mercedes diesels.  Because they will more quickly foul up fuel filters, and requires more maintenance that  it will hurt the overal number of pre 1985 mercedes on the market.  It also raises the values of the older model cars.
I personally think it is good because it does raise the value of these cars, and people are more willing now to save a car (worth $1,000) that normally would go to the dump.

I personally bought a 1979 Mercedes car for $500.  because engine cyclinder was shot.  I am in the process of putting a different engine in and converting it.  I can assure you the car would have been at the junk yard by now (even though the body was in bad shape).  Therefore, In my humble opinion, I think it is overall good for both Mercedes diesels, the environment and making a tiny spec of a difference in getting off foreign oil.



boblo_home -> RE: Diesel and WVO (1/27/2008 9:53:09 AM)

WVO car is not for everyone. It a a hassle to collect, filter and pump into the car. Setting up a filter station and more maintainence on fuel filters etc. There is no free lunch in this world. I have converted a 83 300D  and had done 6000 miles on it for free, or almost free, It has been fun, especally for my daughter who is very 'green'.

I live in CA and hence a 1 tank conversion is OK. I just put a electric heater before the priimary filter, it costs about $150 in eBay and takes 30 minutes to install. I do not even run the coolant through it as a second heat source. The other thing you can do is put in a mix of diesel and WVO. This will increase your mpg without the need to do a conversion. In summer, you can do as high as 80% WVO. In winter, may be 20% depends on the temperature of where you live. There is a lot of info on the web.

I would not worry about the ligality of using WVO. I think in CA is OK as long as use it for your personal use and not to exceed n (?? ) gallons a year. In most European countries, it is legal. US should follow suit.

Good luck.

  

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