Water4Gas

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Water4Gas - 5/4/2008 8:12:16 AM

sundaynsonz

Posts: 37
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline

...with the rising cost of fuel, has anyone tried this water for gas kit or something similar? Does it really work on diesel and gas engines or just another scam????
appreciate any feedback.

Post #: 1

RE: Water4Gas - 5/4/2008 1:54:52 PM

AMGMercedes

Posts: 1500
Joined: 1/31/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Obviously a scam

Your engine was designed to run on oil. Water is the opposite of oil therefore it doesn't work. If everything was so easy then there would be no need for fuel.

If cars ran on water the price of water would increase. Realistically everyone would use tap water at home and considering a very small fraction of water is fresh water that would cause water prices to go up. People would die without water (considering they (you) can't afford it), the ground will turn into a desert since too much water is being sucked out of the ground, that would cause starvation since the ground isn't able to grow things on.

< Message edited by AMGMercedes -- 5/4/2008 2:03:47 PM >

_____________________________

1984 Mercedes 190D-SOLD!
1999 Honda Civic DX- Current DD
1986 Mercedes 190E-16v-On the way

(in reply to sundaynsonz)

Post #: 2

RE: Water4Gas - 5/4/2008 5:18:06 PM

ForcedInduction

Posts: 736
Joined: 5/20/2006
From: Federal Heights, Colorado
Status: offline

100% money robbing scam.

It, just like EVERY other hydrogen/HHO/browns gas "generator" out there, is a simple middle school level science project that an 8 year old can build. Its simple electrolysis. It consists of a jar, water, baking soda, and electricity. There is NO possible way it is worth even remotely close to the $97 asking price. They are making nearly 900% profit on it!

Review your laws of thermodynamics before you blow money on such major scams. There is no possible way it can significantly increase efficiency or produce enough browns gas/HHO/Hydrogen gas without consuming more fuel to generate the required electricity.

Electrolysis is very inefficient. It takes more energy to drive the alternator to make the electricity to do the electrolysis than you will get back from burning the hydrogen as fuel.

Simplified math of cycle.

Electrical generating efficiency of alternator roughly 93%
Electrolysis efficiency 70% ( a very high value obtained through actual experiments )
Diesel cycle efficiency 54% (highest ever observed in actual engine)

Now lets take 5Kw of mechanical energy and run it through the hydrogen generation cycle.

5 x .93 = 4.65 Kw of electrical energy
4.65 x .7 = 3.255 Kw of hydrogen energy

Now lets run that through the diesel cycle

3.255 x .54 = 1.758 Kw of mechanical energy.
So basically, you use 6.7hp to produce 2.36hp using a really old and obvious piece of technology.

So in the end the most you will ever get back about 35% of the energy you expended making the hydrogen.

Conclusions: Losing proposition.

Anyone that pays actual money for scams like that needs to retake their middle school science classes. That includes all forms of MPG scams- Acetone in the fuel, fuel line magnets, propane injection, intake tornadoes, special gas caps, fuel catalysts, octane boosters, cetane boosters, electric superchargers, MAF sensor resistors, O2 sensor resistors and throttle spacers.

NONE of them significantly improve MPG and ALL of them simply drain your wallet of money. Fuel only contains X amount of energy, the first law of thermodynamics says that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. Converting energy into different forms (fuel-mechanical-electrical-electrochemical-mechanical as in the case of the hydrogen generators) results in heat production and energy losses that cannot be regained.

Energy cannot come out of nowhere, if you want to reduce consumption then you need to reduce power demand.
Get all your maintenance up to date.
Use synthetic oil.
Disable your EGR.
Advance injection timing by 2degrees.
Keep the engine at 180*F, no higher.
Use clean fuel from a clean, high traffic station.
Don't gum up the engine with vegetable oil.
Air up your tires to the proper PSI for your vehicle (NOT what it says on the tire sidewall).
Get rid of any unnecessary objects obstructing airflow (spoiler on the trunk lid for example).
Lower the vehicle weight (Remove unused seats, clean out the trunk, don't carry gallons of spare fluids, etc)
Drive 55mph instead of 75mph.
Roll down the windows instead of using the A/C.
If you have a Diesel there are several modifications/swaps that can significantly improve MPG).

I went from averaging 21.1mpg in 06 to 23.4mpg in 07 to 27mpg so far this year by following those steps, driving like a sane person, installing special injectors, installing a higher ratio differential, and improving my turbo's airflow management.

< Message edited by ForcedInduction -- 5/4/2008 5:35:54 PM >

_____________________________

1980 240D 3.0VNTi 216K Miles. OM617.95, GT2256V VNT turbo, 4-speed manual, Intercooler, 3.46 diff, 15mm rear swaybar, ALDA removed, no EGR and Amsoil by-pass oil filter. Currently 107HP and 195lb/ft of torque at the wheels.

www.youtube.com/Turbo617

(in reply to AMGMercedes)

Post #: 3

RE: Water4Gas - 5/4/2008 7:52:02 PM

sundaynsonz

Posts: 37
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline

right on forcedinduction....Obviously the young fellow have not heard of this kit based on his feedback.

(in reply to ForcedInduction)

Post #: 4

RE: Water4Gas - 5/4/2008 10:30:52 PM

lwbrewer

Posts: 79
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline

Water injection can help mpg but it is not a large amount thou. Water vapors will add Oxygen to the cylinders and the steam from the combustion will clean the valves and sensors "some". Hydrogen from water kits most on e-bay are scams. Yes you can make hydrogen and burn it, but as stated above energy is not created or destroyed just changes form, and heat is a energy.
To AMG if you convert H2O to hydrogen two parts and 1 part oxygen and burn the hydrogen. The byproduct from burning it is water so no water would be lost maybe contaminated but not lost

(in reply to sundaynsonz)

Post #: 5

RE: Water4Gas - 5/5/2008 11:13:13 AM

ForcedInduction

Posts: 736
Joined: 5/20/2006
From: Federal Heights, Colorado
Status: offline

Hydrogen can also damage aluminum over time, something to remember on the engines with an aluminum head and all the engines (all MB's diesels use aluminum alloy pistons).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_damage

_____________________________

1980 240D 3.0VNTi 216K Miles. OM617.95, GT2256V VNT turbo, 4-speed manual, Intercooler, 3.46 diff, 15mm rear swaybar, ALDA removed, no EGR and Amsoil by-pass oil filter. Currently 107HP and 195lb/ft of torque at the wheels.

www.youtube.com/Turbo617

(in reply to lwbrewer)

Post #: 6

RE: Water4Gas - 5/9/2008 2:38:51 PM

AMGMercedes

Posts: 1500
Joined: 1/31/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

Water injection can help mpg. Water vapors will add Oxygen to the cylinders and the steam from the combustion will clean the valves and sensors "some"

No it doesn't. The most water vapor will do is rust the non aluminum parts and the exhaust system. When water is injected in and dillutes the diesel fuel, the engine will not operate properly. Diesel by itself cleans the engine more or less depending on which brand being used.

quote:

The byproduct from burning it is water so no water would be lost maybe contaminated but not lost

When it's going out the tailpipe yes there will be lost water. Again, if it were so easy to do something like that (collect the water coming out, break it down into fuel, use it, then collect the water coming out and so on) we wouldn't be using fuel

But if you are right and people start pouring water in the fuel tank to get some of those water vapors in the engine and saves people some cash I'll give you a thumbs up for a revolutionary idea

_____________________________

1984 Mercedes 190D-SOLD!
1999 Honda Civic DX- Current DD
1986 Mercedes 190E-16v-On the way

(in reply to ForcedInduction)

Post #: 7

RE: Water4Gas - 5/10/2008 2:18:53 AM

ForcedInduction

Posts: 736
Joined: 5/20/2006
From: Federal Heights, Colorado
Status: offline

In any case, there are FAR better ways to increase fuel economy and/or power. Propane, HHO/Hydrogen/Browns, water injection and fuel additives all have a very low value for the results they return.

_____________________________

1980 240D 3.0VNTi 216K Miles. OM617.95, GT2256V VNT turbo, 4-speed manual, Intercooler, 3.46 diff, 15mm rear swaybar, ALDA removed, no EGR and Amsoil by-pass oil filter. Currently 107HP and 195lb/ft of torque at the wheels.

www.youtube.com/Turbo617

(in reply to AMGMercedes)

Post #: 8