[ View Full Version Of This Page ]
transmission fluid change - help please
All Forums
»
Mercedes E Class
»
transmission fluid change - help please
artur221
4/26/2008 5:36:18 PM
hello everybody,
i am in a little trouble with one thing.i am trying to drain my transmission , i took a sump off. there is no drain plug on torque converter. i am thinking to do as per Ohlord's link... below.
Copied from Ohlord's link.....
"There are going to be two lines which run from your transmission to a cooling system of some sort at the front of your vehicle. This will either be a special section on the bottom of your radiator or a separate transmission fluid cooler. It shouldn't be that difficult to find.
Disconnect one of those two lines. If this line is flexible, then disconnect the end that attaches to your transmission (making sure to clean any dirt off the end of the hose and the area around the connection first). You'll use this disconnected end to drain fluid from. Don't disconnect the other end.
If it is not flexible, you'll probably need to have some extra temporary, flexible hose on hand to use. In this case you'll disconnect the same line, but disconnect it where it comes out of the cooling system, NOT where it attaches to the transmission (again making sure to clean the area around the connection first). Then connect one end of the flexible line (brake line should work - ask your local auto parts store) to the fluid cooler (where you removed the other line) and leave the other end unconnected to drain into a pan.
No matter which way you have to do this, keep in mind that although there might be a small amount of drainage when you first disconnect the hose, it should be minimal and should stop quickly (far less than a half quart). THE HOSE WILL NOT DRAIN AGAIN UNTIL YOU WILL START THE ENGINE. If you're not sure you're following, don't worry. It will all become clear."
I HAVE A QUESTION, IS IT SAFE TO START A CAR WITH NO FLUID IN THE GEAR BOX? IT WON'T DAMAGE OR BREAK IT?????
OR IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY TO DRAIN A SYSTEM
PLEASE SOMEBODY ADVISE.
skigyz
4/26/2008 6:06:01 PM
Artur,
Ohlord has made a very strong statement about how it will be clear when you start to do this tranny fluid change yourself! The first thing you should check is to see if your car REALLY has a tranny dip stick! Most later models only have a filler cover! The dip stick is optional! There is no way to measure the fluid level via the computer read out. Take your car to a reputable oil change service outfit and have them do a "transfusion" using the tranny cooling lines entering and exiting the radiator as Ohlord mentioned...that way what comes out gets replaced going in. But be careful here because MB may use a special fluid that is not compatible with other SAE fluids. The best way is to drop the transmission pan and change the screen and filter..but buy the dip stick from your dealer first. By the way, why are you changing the fluid? Regards, Bob
ohlord
4/26/2008 7:22:20 PM
I replied to his pm.He already drained the pan so I told him he needs to fill the transmission before doing the cooing line drain.And you are quite correct the 722.6 trans only take mb fluid,depending where he is located I sell the special dipstick for $40 delivered in the states.
on benzworld.org w210 section member yumling just did this procedure and provided pictures in a recent post if you search his posts.
ohlord
fill slowly and do not over or under fill check while running and make sure proper level.....
another good diy to follow
http://www.mercedesshop.com/Wikka/Trans7226Fluid
snanceki
4/26/2008 10:47:29 PM
RANT:
I still have difficulty with why you guys in the States appear fixated on tranny fluid changes on 722.6 onwards.
I maintain that the potential for introducing dirt, incorrect filter type, incorrect fluid, "old" gasket leaks, incorrectly torqued fixings, leaks from disconnected cooler lines etc etc is a far greater threat than degradation of the oil which has been specified to support maximum speed high ambient operation "FOR LIFE". After all you guys rarely go over 50% of the vehicles rated speed and unless you are in the desert are unlikely to be regularly seeing ambient over 40C. OK if you are pulling a large trailer that is a different matter. Oil temp is the key to its life.
OK so I agree a point is reached at which some benefit MIGHT arise which I arbitrarily set at 100k miles + but assumes use of MB trans oil and filter. Use of non OE trans fluid MAY well make matters worse than continuing with the original "special" oil.
The need to drain the TC is again IMHO over the top / academic.
I have the same problem with your obsession in getting vehicles tracked.
My experience is that the equipment used in the factory to set front and rear suspension is so sophisticated that any after market equipment equipment is unlikely to match its accuracy. Just as a starter the in factory system is done with the vehicle in motion on rollers on all 4 wheels at set load conditions etc. Once the factory settings are lost (assuming this process was done correctly which I agree is a moote point) I'm prepared to bet that any subsequent settings will be incorrect,. The majority of outlets do not even understand the procedure required by MB.
OK, If you hit a kerb hard then you need to ensure that the original factory settings have not changed but only adjust when you are sure that damage has occurred. In house simulated kerb strike tests are beyond anything that you are likely to encounter in "normal" use. (Something like 20 tests at 50mph, brakes locked, 4" kerb at 90degrees or whatever.)
I think you guys have a saying....If it ain't broke. I agree with that one!!
artur221
4/27/2008 12:59:52 AM
Guys,
thanks for all your replays, i really appresiate for all your answers.
reason why i am changing is that my MB has done 140k kilometers and tranny fluid was never changed, color of it is black, so i have decided to change all oils and filters. ( i took filter out and it has manufacturing date same as my car).
for last few weeks i followed most of postings about tanny fluid change. so yes I have purchased 8 liters of , let say genuine, MB fluid filter and pan gasket, from local MB dealer. I have got my deep stick tool shipped from US .
And by the way ,Ohlord, thanks for the link, this was my yesterdays guide ( i have found it on e-net few days ago) changing of oil in AT. but when it came to converters turn, that where problem came from, becouse i dont have a drain plug on it.
Thank you guys for all your help, especcialy Ohlord, for guiding, i will do this job today, so will see what will happens :) i'll let you know
regards
Art
ohlord
4/27/2008 5:04:23 AM
Stew,
The factory and dealers now recommend trans fluid change at 60k miles.More and more people waiting to 100k miles experience shift problems or shift quality problems and failures.It is not life time fluid and mercedes now admits that.Thus the obsession.
On the other subject.A lot of owners run custom wheels and lowered suspensions,a 1.5 inch drop is enough to introduce a massive negitive camber and require wheel alignment.The dealers here have the proper machine to set it to spec.Also if the ball joints are replaced the alighn job needs to be done and that is why the dealer machine is the best place for that job.
All the diy articles specify mb 722.6 or the new 722.9 backwards compatible fluid,a new filter,and gasket and the use of the special dipstick for critical fluid level.
ohlord
artur221
4/27/2008 11:25:32 AM
Hi again!!!! Finally I have changed my transmission fluid in my MB E200. And now actual performance of a care is much better. I have changed filter, gasket an approx 7.6 litres of fluid in all system. And now I really see a difference. I have used system below, as i don’t have a drain plug on torque converter. So I would like to say VERY BIG THANKS to OHLORD, for helping me out with my issue, and also to YUMLING for detailed info how to drain actual system as in my case. I think it is brilliant information provided. I hope Yumling wouldn’t mind that I have posted his pictured let’s say description of fluid replacement. As his information is important i think. OHLORD – thanks one’s more for your help, i really appreciate all your help. Thank you Guys for your help is very useful to newcomers like me. All newcomers, below is detailed information, how to change your transmission fluid in AT 722.6 I found it brilliant Regards Artur221
MercedesShopWiki : Trans7226Fluid
WikiHome :: Categories :: PageIndex :: RecentChanges :: RecentlyCommented :: Admin Login
722.6 Transmission Fluid and Filter Change
Background:
There is a lot of hype out there that the mere mortal does not posses the technical skills to change the transmission fluid on his/her Benz and there is a cadre out there saying it's as easy as an oil change. I am of the opinion that it is somewhere between the two. The procedure is more complex than an oil change but certainly within the grasp of the majority of DIY'ers.
Tech Specs:
Mercedes 722.6 transmission
Transmission Pan torx bolts[6ea]: ~106 inch/lbs
Torx Bolt : #30
Transmission Drain Plug: 5mm hex at ~18 ft/lbs
Torque Converter drain plug: 5mm hex at ~20 ft/lbs
Camshaft pulley nut : 27mm
Tools Required:
Jackstands 4ea
Floor jack
#30 torx socket
5mm hex socket
Socket wrench with extensions
Torque wrench > inch pounds [106 in/lbs]
Torque wrench > 20 ft/lbs
27 mm socket
Long breaker bar
Mercedes transmission dipstick tool [Fastlane - J2024-110887]
AT Filter [Fastlane - J000-56367]
Infrared thermometer
Long Neck funnel fits transmission tube
Rags
7-9 liters of MB transmission fluid [Fastlane - Z8001-107773]
Procedure:
1. Jack up the Benz as far as possible [front and rear] and support with jack stands. Benz on flat ground I like to use a 6 x 6 piece of plywood to act as a buffer between the Benz and the jack stand]
2. Good idea to put down a good layer of newspaper/cardboard under the Benz to catch spillage
3. As far as I know the transmission can be drained either cold, warm or hot. I drained mine warm.
4. Start draining with the transmission pan drain plug. It's quite obvious. 5mm hex. You should get about 3 liters of fluid out. After the pan has drained, detach the pan via #30 torx [6 bolts]. There will still be about a half-inch of fluid in the pan so be careful [unless you like tranny-oil baths].
5. You can examine the color, smell of the transmission fluid and get an idea as to the status of your transmission > see the color of money article. Additionally, it's good to note any metal particulates in the bottom of the pan. Clean the pan with a lint-free cloth you don't want to induce any unwanted stuff into the system.
6. Remove transmission filter. It's just pressed into position no hardware holding it in position > note it's location before removing though.
7. Drain torque converter. The torque converter is located forward [towards front of car]of the transmission pan in a sort-of oval housing. Unless the drain plug stopped in the down position, you will have to have someone turn the engine over to rotate the torque converter. Turning the engine over is accomplished by using a 27mm socket on a long breaker bar placing the 27mm on the crankshaft pulley nut and gently rotating the engine clockwise. Since the rear wheels are off the ground- should rotate easily. Obviously, you don't want to break the crankshaft pulley nut loose just rotate the crank which rotates the torque converter.
8. With the torque converter drain plug in the down position use a 5mm hex with an extension and unscrew. You'll get another 3 liters of old tranny fluid out of the torque converter.
9. After everything is drained it's time to install a new transmission filter, reinstall the drain plugs and secure the pan back to the transmission. Torque to 106 inch pounds [not a lot of torque]
10. I found that the transmission pan gasket was still quite serviceable it's a rubber affair and quite well-constructed unlike most typical US gaskets > so I reused the old gasket.
11. The reinstall of the transmission filter was not exactly elegant You get the filter in position, hope it stays attached, and quickly put the pan into position.
12. Ok, tranny drain plug in, torque converter drain plug in, tranny pan attached .
13. Clear-out all stuff under your Benz and lower off of jackstands.
14. Now it's time to pour in new transmission fluid. Obviously > use only the correct Mercedes Benz fluid > .
15. I poured in six liters and took the Benz on a short/medium drive to get the transmission warmed up. I wrapped a rag around the tranny tube > used a long neck funnel and slowly poured the fluid in.
16. With the engine running, car in Park, > use the infrared thermometer and ping the tranny pan the pan should be the same temp as the fluid inside.
17. Unclip the red plastic piece on the transmission cap and remove the cap.
18. Using the MB dipstick tool check the fluid level.
19. This is where the purists' note that only a shop with the special MB diagnostic star-gizmo can perform the procedure.
20. I maintain that if my infrared thermometer says the tranny pan/fluid is at 80degrees Celsius, and the tranny fluid level on the special MB dipstick tool is at the top mark at 80 C, then I am good to go. I have filled the proper amount of fluid. I used 7.3 liters of fluid for the change.
21. It should be noted that the MB dipstick tool reads from the bottom up. That is, stick it all the way in and pull it out, read the fluid level. You will have a good 8 inches of dipstick hanging out the transmission tube overhanging the engine remember it's a tool...not a dipstick.
22. Some of you are going to be griping: Man, I gotta buy a special dipstick tool, a blinking infrared thermometer...a 25 inch breaker bar...too much gingle for this gig. Let me impart my tools-are-free philosophy. It goes...an indie shop wanted $125 to do a tranny fluid chan
artur221
4/27/2008 11:32:50 AM
ohlord
4/27/2008 12:02:37 PM
And i have the special dipstick delivered in the states for $40.
there is also another good diy in the diy section of benzworld.org w210 section.
ohlord
check your fluid again in a few days to double check the level.
skigyz
4/27/2008 7:02:08 PM
Ohlord,
While we are on the topic of transmission fluid how about some feedback here? I have an '04 E320 4-matic that was a flood salvage from fresh water. I had the tranny fluid changed at the time I purchased it because the engine had a bent rod from hydro lock and I repaired the engine and now have over 20K on it and it runs great. The tranny, however, does seem to hang on to gears when I go uphill but if I tap the tip-tronic shifter to up-shift it responds fine. Do you think that the fluid level could be a bit low? My dip stick was for an '00. Are they different? Bob
ohlord
4/27/2008 8:16:03 PM
04 can you check the level on the dash read out?If not and you still have the 00 dipstick it is the same 722.6 tanns so you can check the level.Engine to temp and running.
Ohlord
MBMEX
4/28/2008 5:03:44 AM
Here in Mexico the MB dealers recomends a trans fluid change every 60k kms. I has just done it at the local dealer. Now the car has rough shifts between 1st and 2nd speed. The car has the 7 speed trans. The dealer says they will check the tranny to see what happened. But getting back to the subject of this threat, I saw the old oil coming out of the transmission when the were doing the job, it was like a thick black jelly, ugly as hell. This car has 68k miles. Change trans fluid is a good way to avoid a really big and expensive future problem. Go to the dealer and use the MB oils and filters.
snanceki
4/28/2008 9:39:57 PM
If the trans fluid was like "thick black jelly" something is likely wrong!!
The trans does not have to cope with carbon products due to combustion -- so why is it black?
Without seeing / analysis either some form of addititve is presernt in the OE oil that colours it black (normal MB trans fluid for the 722.6 is Cherry Red), somebody has added an additive or something terrible is going on within the box. Maybe Moly was used during initial assembly?
Have no idea what the recommendation is on the 7 speed but I challenge the statement that MB NOW recommend changing the oil prior to 100k MILES.
Maybe MB USA do but why would MB make such a statement only covering the USA other than to fit with USA Custom and Practice (Maybe the low cost of oil relative to ROW has something to do with it?)
I wonder if anybody can actually find a MB (Europe / Germany) recommendation that states anything other than filled for life on the 722.6
Changing the oil and then immediately experiencing SHIFT problems seems to validate my position!
Stuart.
ohlord
4/28/2008 11:39:06 PM
Tons of dealers over here are now offering the service and indie shops also and a lot of diy owners.If done properly with the new filter and gasket and mb spec fluid to the proper level,the transmission really responds with much better shift quality and reaction.
The black color is the graphite(carbon) used in the clutches and bands and when it gets bad enough can cause problems with the input and output turbine speed sensors and that means pulling the valve body.Much cheaper if you want the trans to last to do the trans drain and fill and enjoy it for far far more miles than mercedes ever expected for its lifetime filled transmissions.
MBmex has the w211 and he knows now that that was a mistake and if he has shift problems it is either the dealer did not do it correctly or the trans was going before the change.
I can point out myriads of owners who thought it was time for a new transmission and after having or doing the fluid change are happily shifting down the road.The 722.6 can use either the 5speed or 7 speed fluid,the 7 speed 722.9 can only use the 7 speed fluid.mb spec only.
ohlord
btw owners from Australia and other countries in far flung corners of the world report the dealers telling them the tune has changed on the lifetime fluid and bring it in for service.
snanceki
4/29/2008 3:26:08 AM
IOhlord,
I do not disagree with what you have stated BUT unless something is wrong I still come from the school of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"...at least up to 100k +.
I have myself posted that a change of fluiod CAN sometimes fix all sorts of hanging on to gears etc problems but routine change is in my view OOT.
I await a response to my challenge. I wish to learn be educated.
Stuart
ohlord
4/29/2008 8:50:58 AM
The dealers and shop over here recommend 60k or abouts simply because by 100 k miles is when problems show up.100 k is to long to wait for automatic fluid.Even the mb spec stuff
ohlord
*see this recent post by member
'91 300CE on benzworld.org*
"There was a service bulletin put out about this not too long after the statement they made about "sealed for life". Sealed for life means "sealed until it fails" (sometimes from not replacing fluid".
My dealer recommended it as soon as I brought the car in to them at 52k miles."
skigyz
4/30/2008 6:41:18 PM
Ohlord,
There is NO tranny dipstick tube in the '04 and there is also no in-dash fluid level read out. From what my mechanic has researched one must use a thermo sensor gun that must be aimed at the transmission after the transmission has been re-filled and it must read 60/C running temp at a certain height on the pan! What is MB afraid of!!!! Mine is fine, Thankgoodness!
snanceki
5/5/2008 11:33:01 PM
Hi Ohlord.
I like your...Sealed for life means "sealed until it fails".!! Not so sure about this bit however ...."(sometimes from not replacing fluid". I guess its all in the word "sometimes"!
The dealer would recommend changing the oil wouldn't they. Nice little earner. Trans oil change is not on the European service sheet even at 100k MILES.
I guess I will have to agree that DONE CORRECTLY changing the oil can't be a BAD thing except for its impact on your budget.
Gas has now gone thru 10 USD per Imp Gallon in the UK. i.e. 8 USD per US gallon.
Stuart
ohlord
5/6/2008 2:03:17 PM
Changing fluid ,filter,gasket and all supplies maybe 300bucks,not doing it and frying a 722.6 trans 3-8 thousand depending who does it and dealer gets 6 grand for a new 722.6.There object is change the fluid if you want however they more then likely would rather see it fail and replace it for over 8 thousand dollars or sell you a new car.
ohlord
Defiant
5/6/2008 9:45:32 PM
Automobiles are constructed in order to sell to the first buyer. He's supposed to turn it in for another new one after three or four years. That many cars are now lasting a decade-and-a-half is a huge burr under the saddle of the makers. A salesman telling a customer on the showroom floor, standing next to a glistening, prepped, detailed and scratchless new car that the transmission fluid is "lifetime", "maintenance-free", "permanent" or any other hyperbolic descriptor is only doing his job- which is to sell the car.
When a manufacturer starts believing their own advertising, and that advertising makes a media star of their product lasting a quarter-million (etc.) miles (etc.), is about the time they realize they probably should have begun painting the floor from the wall furthest from the door.
Daimler, BMW, Volvo and Borgward have produced some very, very well-designed cars. Most especially to those in places like the United States, where the build level was for so many decades a point of union contract and ease of labor for those union members instead of customer satisfaction over customer dazzlement (also fully understood by British Leyland vict.... er, customers), this edge in quality not only amazed customers, but brought about in them a sense of pride previously unknown in car ownership- consequently, they took better care of an automobile which took better care of them, and didn't need a parts recovery net affixed to its underside after two-and-a-half years.
The cruel reality is that if it moves, it wears. If it's built a bit stronger, it wears a bit more slowly. But there are no "lifetime" features -unless, by "lifetime", they mean that it works until it's dead.
snanceki
5/6/2008 11:59:30 PM
Hi all,
Looks like the "debate" is hotting up!
Now remember. I have NEVER said that the oil NEVER needs changing. I just said that changing it at lets say 30k miles is over the top.
So the debate is about WHEN the oil should be changed. I have ARBITARILLY gone with > 100k miles but this is a figure picked from the ether.
Yep, I agree that 250k is nothing special for a modern designed vehicle that is serviced in line with the manufacturers service schedule.
I saw a w140 (I think) with 950k miles for sale not so long ago on eBay!
Now remember we are talking the trans, not the engine, which is a very different situation
So what is the parameter that causes the oil to degrade? and what is the linkage between this and mileage?
I'm sure there must be some oil industry expert out there that will provide the answer and a graph or similar on this.
Now also remember that the filter is designed to remove particles > than x micron which is considered a size that will prevent any sticking of the valves in the valve block. The capacity, and effectiveness of the filter is of course dependent on how much "foreign bodies" are in suspension in the oil. This size will also ensure that bearing surfaces, rollers etc degrade at a rate that is academic.
Finally, what are the modes of failure that have been caused by oil that has exceeded whatever the limit is that was defined in the first part of the question.
Stuart.
PS. It appears that you are all determined to change the trans oil but the differential is a much more arduous application of oil technology. And I don't hear the same desire to change this.
ohlord
5/7/2008 7:27:18 AM
The transmission is but through much more use and temperature extremes than the rear diff ever encounters.And yes we service our rear differentials per a maint interval.The diy can be found on benzworld.org w210 diy section.
At 175 f fluid will last a long time,our w210 regularly operate at 185-200f,the trans cooler is the radiator so operating temp is trans temp and 20 degrees temp increase can cut transmission fluid life in half.Never mind all the graphite that floats around and contaminates the sensors located on top of the valve body.Change it early and spare yourself the agony.
ohlord
Defiant
5/8/2008 9:40:57 AM
quote:
ORIGINAL: snanceki
So what is the parameter that causes the oil to degrade?
Heat. And, below ~250°F, the oil won't degrade appreciably: but the additives that provide the crucial characteristics do "wear out" with normal use. It's not only a matter of the lubrication qualities of the fluid, but the friction modifiers, detergents, surfactants and temperature modifiers.
quote:
and what is the linkage between this and mileage?
The heat cycles and their extremes count for more than mileage. Ten minutes of high-temperature operation can count for a decade of normal use.
snanceki
5/8/2008 10:17:00 AM
Hi Defiant!
You making the points for me.
Temperature is the key parameter impacting trans fluid life. In "normal" use oil temp is circa 80/90C. No problem.
However at VERY high speed it will rise to 110C dependent upon how long this speed is maintained. However towing will take it to 140C subject to the effectiveness of the oil cooler.
Mileage is not really important. Its duty cycle that is so important.
However, change the oil as often as your budget will allow BUT ensure you use the MB AT fluid otherwise you will be making matters worse than leaving well alone.
Stuart
[ View Full Version Of This Page ]
Return to the Mercedes Forum home page - Archive Home
