Ready for the draft? - Page 2

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ORIGINAL: BikerDrew

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ORIGINAL: Charles Munn

With that in mind, while starkly understanding that you hate poets, etc...

Hate? ...Where? Who?  Stop projecting.

Point taken. But projecting implies I hate poets/artist, so I automatically assume that you too must hate artist/poets... But that won't fly because for the last couple of decades I've earned a liviing as a painter, mostly portraits, but also sold a few hundred landscapes and abstracts, wrote a couple of books... Have always liked poetry.... and my favorite sport, even at this old age, is the fine art of boxing.. Still, maybe you don't hate poets or the arts... And previously in the "I like it" thread, merely made a point by implying  that poets and artist are unproductive and you're just tired of having to support them.. Nah, maybe that's not hate...    

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ORIGINAL: Biker Drew  I can see the day when Arkology living will be the norm, single family homes will be taxed out of existence (except for the government class), individual transportation options will be highly taxed, citizens (if those exist anymore) will be herded into trains for the morning commute, socialism will "be good for us" and mosts folks will still have to bust our asses to pay for those who write poetry, paint pictures, sculpt bronze, still can't read or write, who just want to chill.

Funny though, a major difference between various humanlike creatures and modern humans/ homo sapians is that modern humans are artists/poets..That is, I strongly suspect the best of us, in any field of human endeavour are, in essence, artists/poets...  

You sound like a capitalist.

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ORIGINAL: BikerDrew

You sound like a capitalist.

I am, but only in the Adam Smith/David Hume models...That is, I'm a lliberal capitalist.  As you're probably aware, Smith, who is thought of as the father of capitalism, promoted the family business and the notion of moral responsibiltiy to its customers and to the community. Such ideas were the antitheses of the modern corporation. Yet many CEO's either haven't read Adam Smith, or merely choose to cherry pick his work while ignoring his basic premise.

Of course in some circles David  Hume is known as the Small Business man's philosopher, but what I most admire about him is his utter faulting of Descarte's notion that Man and Nature are forever separate.  Yet neither Smith nor Hume were against a small business growing into a large one... as long as it didn't go public and devolve into a greed machine, and devoid of the artist/ poet within each of us......Which is to say, to devolve into The Corporation..

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ORIGINAL: Charles Munn

...Man and Nature are forever separate.  

I the west, we have separated our selfs from nature though our habitat ( acclimatized building practices, etc.) and social structures which tend to focus on the self and individual desires. To connect with nature, we must break out of the daily routine and seek the connection through sports, introspection and love, for example. 

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ORIGINAL: Charles Munn

Yet neither Smith nor Hume were against a small business growing into a large one... as long as it didn't go public and devolve into a greed machine, and devoid of the artist/ poet within each of us......Which is to say, to devolve into The Corporation..

Most corporations are public in the sense that participation is freely available to anyone who can pay the price of ownership. They are specifically created in such a way that a small investment makes ownership attractive. Corporate employees are forwarding the mission of the corp. by being creative and innovative, just look at the products they produce. In the USA, the service industry is the words largest and, per capita, we are the most generous. Yes, people (stock holders like you and me) are getting rich in the service of others. Corporate stewardship is another issue altogether. 

Stop cherry picking my statements. I did not say man and nature are forever separate. I said exactly the reverse. "David  Hume is known as the Small Business man's philosopher, but what I most admire about him is his utter faulting of Descarte's notion that Man and Nature are forever separate."
Faulting means that David Hume proved Rene Descartes notion that Man and Nature are forever separate cannot and doesnot make any sense, Humankind is biological, an intricate part of nature. Therefore Man and Earth and Nature are made up of carbons which is the stuff of Suns. Therefore Man = Nature = Earth = Sun = The visible nondeterministic universe = Nature.

There is now a growing movement to re-instate the draft and it comes from the liberals who voted  out the Republican gangsters in both houses. Since it was Republicans who put Bush in power and Bush then lied the US into Iraq, then the first 500,000 new draftees should be registered Republicans.

Gees, I was just pointing out that I understand the inner need to create and why.

The reason we went to Iraq is enforcement of UN mandates. Was that a lie? It is provable. There were other motives, some are succeeding, some are failing. We have been there too long.

And as much as anything, this little draft rumble is usually the way it starts... a testing of the waters....http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1222-01.htm I say go for it... School, Wealth, No exceptions. Let the pain of losing love ones be felt across the stratum of society.  Re-instating the draft may be the only way of putting a face on the people whom too many US citizens would have the country "Nuke" or otherwise maim and killl.
In the end, re-instating the draft may be one of the only ways to close the door on mindless pre-emptive attacks against other nations done by rich kids whose only success in life was to be born into powerful political families.
Done properly, within the rule of law, a draft may be the only way for those fat rich kids, as well as the not too bright poor ones, who are fast to send in the US military, to finally get a taste of what it means to be shot at, as well as the horror of having been involved in the "colateral" killing of thousands of non combatant families.
Geoge W. Bush, like a rock, only dumber. 

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ORIGINAL: Charles Munn

I say go for it... School, Wealth, No exceptions. Let the pain of losing love ones be felt across the stratum of society.  
 

How about females?

I have no problem with a truly fair draft. I still think troop morale will fall. But, that could be your main motive for supporting a draft in the first place. I see name calling and rehashed talking points in your prose. I can also see we have very little in common. Bye!

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ORIGINAL: BikerDrew




How about females?

I have no problem with a truly fair draft. I still think troop morale will fall. But, that could be your main motive for supporting a draft in the first place. I see name calling and rehashed talking points in your prose. I can also see we have very little in common. Bye!

True. I've long suspected we have little in common, other than our shared humanity. Also, I do find it annoying that some here callously discount the lives of others, including small Libyan children dying from aids. Hence my little jab at fat rich Republicans making up the 1st 500,000 draftees...  

Yet from the tone of this last post by you, maybe if we both acknowledge a humanity which extends to every human on earth, it's possible we might have a dialogue. I also tend to agree with you that troop morale may fail. It certainly failed in Vietnam. And yes, I wouldn't mind if it fails now and we are forced to leave Iraq, and stop being Israels wagging tail. Yet if all major media, both left and right, convince the public that a national draft is necessary to the survival of the USA, then it will occur. The draft will then evolve into a moral duty and, I strongly suspect, that includes females.  

Don't misunderstand me. I'm merely making an observation based on little tidbits which now seem to be creeping into major media outlets and carried by both left and right aspects of US society. For example, yesterday a draft morsel was in Common Dreams and today it's in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/opinion/25sun1.html?th&emc=th

I've long said that no matter what faction is in power, the USA will occupy Irag as long as the M.E is the major world supplier of oil. I'm not at all for that scenario, but realistically, the US invasion of Iraq has upset the applecart in the M.E. Maybe it was done deliberately, maybe it was done because some sort of shadow government (  the so-called, "Illuminatti?" ) believes Iraq is the major geo-political lever going into the 21st century... But whatever the reason, the US now has a tiger by the tail. If we let it go, there's hell to pay. If we don't, then we need to build a much larger military force.

Whatever the reason for a continual USA led occupation of Iraq, as it now stands, the US militrary cannot meet that mission without large influx of soldiers. That influx of cannon fodder can only come from a re-enacted draft. Citizen soldiers fought and died against Germany, Italy, and Japan. They did it well, but only because it was considered to be necessary for the survival of the country. I suspect that case is now being laid out by the US media.  

That said, it seems this could be the beginning of a broader propaganda agenda intended to bolster the patriotism needed to sustain a so-called long term war on terror.... i.e., on the ME.... In a large part that's because of the extremely influential Israeli lobby who has bought and paid for too many US politicians. Also, I suspect the ultra rich, that 1%  who own 40% of the world's wealth, believe such a thing is good for them, therefore good for the world. That bit of nonsense has been in play for many years and now, because of such left and right publications as Fox News and The New York times, et al, most US citizens believe  the country needs to fight Irael's enemies, such as Irag and Iran, even though they pose no threat to our  existence.

OK, now we are getting somewhere. Forgive my word use, I have only one advanced degree ( it wasn't in Lit.).
 
I, for one, don't ever want to see our country at war.  It made me sick when we invaded Afghanistan and then Iraq. The news media and our government gave all of us reasons for going to war. While we are not responsible and are mostly incapable of solving social and political problems abroad, I really feel there is more than meets the eye with everything we see going on in the M.E.. You could look at our involvement there as meeting the enemy on their soil, an old an tested military tactic. You could look at our government protecting our economy by protecting energy resources (we could destroy OPEC if we force the issue) and allied governments. It is easy to be cynical since we will never get a real clear picture. I would rather think our intentions are noble. Nobility and war don't fit too well together.
 
If we are to waste more troupes on a police action, handing out candy and taking and being target practice, they could come from folks stationed in Germany ( I'm for closing  ALL our bases there). We could lease land from Iraq or Kuwait and set up a permanent strategic base with nuclear capability to keep the tribes apart. We have trillions investing in defense technology including unmanned air defense that could be used.
 
What do I know? Not much, other than if the US citizens are not behind whatever actions are taken, all efforts will fail, our credibility will be lost abroad, and more idiots will bring their ideology here with force.

Well, in hindsight, I too should have been against going into Afghanistan. But I truly wanted to hunt bin Laden down and kill him. I still do. Yet the Taliban was still talking to CIA and a deal was on the table. Had we taken it, we could have had bin Laden, and the Taliban could have had Afghanistan. That would have been in our national interest. We could have also made a deal with the Taliban to allow wertern oil to build a pipeline through Afghansitan to make Turkministans vast natural gas available to the rest of the world.
But I was adamantly opposed to attacking Iraq's rusting Army and non-existant AF on the whim of PNAC. http://www.newamericancentury.org/ We had Saddam contained, UN inspectors were in country and had to be recalled before we invaded. We had no business there, and it angered me that we didn't finish the job in Afghanistan.

I have been away but i was just reading what u too have been writing very interesting. I am very tired still right now so i will have to comment on it all later.

Sorry about not finishing last nights post, but my computer seemed to go haywire...It seems the keyboard batteries were failing...
Anyway... to finish..... I too strongly feel that the USA should pull out of Germany. Let the Europeans pick up the tab for Bosnia, etc... I felt that way, and had many discussions with close pals,  even while still in the active AF.
I can also agree with you on another important issue... i.e., What do I know? And in my case I can honestly say, "Not much...and the older I get, the more I know that I know nothing. 

All I can do is to try my best to stay informed. Since it seems the US media is in some sort of collusion to keep US citiizens uniformed, including CNN who broadcasts 2 separate notions of the news, one to the US and another to the rest of the world, I not only scan US publications, but also try to keep up with good European newspapers.

In the end.... speaking for myself..... I can only try to never lie, particularly to myself.... And even though I revell in being an avowed agnostic, and understanding that it's beyond my reach, still trying to live within the philosophy of Siddhartha Gotama, which is to say within the basic tenets ascribed to Jesus, seems to also help enormously.

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ORIGINAL: mbz300sdl

I have been away but i was just reading what u too have been writing very interesting. I am very tired still right now so i will have to comment on it all later.

 
I look forward to reading your comments.
Seasons greetings and best wishes,
charlie munn

I am more spiritual than religious. Some common ground IS coming to the surface I see.

We could use some more input for other forum member.

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ORIGINAL: BikerDrew

I am more spiritual than religious.

I tend to discount all supersitions but, however minutely, remain open to most possibilities...
 
 

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Some common ground IS coming to the surface I see.

Yep, it seems the debate was doomed the moment we acknowledged a shared humanity.

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We could use some more input for other forum member.

 I fully agree!

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the once strong blue color middle class who once enjoyed the benifits of a good union, can now barely survive

Well dad was in a Union retired at 49 and now votes Republican because he is a Born-Again
 

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To connect with nature, we must break out of the daily routine and seek the connection through sports, introspection and love

This is why i think the idea of a daily routine is a bad thing. I come from a more rural background grew-up shooting guns, riding 4-wheelers,  working on cars and OMG going outside and playing instead of video games for 8 hours strait everyday. Dont get me wrong i love technology and progess but when i ask someone that lives in a urban environmoent what they do for fun they tell me the drink or party. Wow what fun.
 

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they could come from folks stationed in Germany

Yeah i dont forsee Germany being another problem do any of you or Japan for that matter?
 

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Yet the Taliban was still talking to CIA and a deal was on the table. Had we taken it, we could have had bin Laden, and the Taliban could have had Afghanistan.

 
I didnt know that do u have a link or somewhere i can read more about it?
 

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Let the Europeans pick up the tab for Bosnia, etc...

 
Yeah really y is anything in Europe out problemm anymore anoyway i mean come on the EU along with other European countries that are in it are powerful and wealthy. Why does the USA have to deal with there problems?
 

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ORIGINAL: BikerDrew

I am more spiritual than religious.

I tend to discount all supersitions but, however minutely, remain open to most possibilities...

 
Some say i live a sad life when it comes to my ideas on this i believe we are no more than complex life forms that when we die we simply no longer exist except in living things memories. And what i have written down these forums may oneday be my greatest gift to society.
 
 
Back to all the talk about the oil we (USA and those who need it) have excess food supplies well its obvious that the UN food for oil isnt the best idea so lets try something else. I dont really have much of an idea but i think that is were we should go on that issue even if it does mean bypassing OPEC maybe somehow getting some countries to leave OPEC. Ideas?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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ORIGINAL: mbz300sdl

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Yet the Taliban was still talking to CIA and a deal was on the table. Had we taken it, we could have had bin Laden, and the Taliban could have had Afghanistan.

I didnt know that do u have a link or somewhere i can read more about it?

I can't remember where I read that, but you're right for calling me on it. I'll continue looking for a link. In the meantime the following shows some of the murky deals that seems to have occurred:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html

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ORIGINALCharles Munn Let the Europeans pick up the tab for Bosnia, etc...

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ORGINAL:mbz300sdl Yeah really y is anything in Europe out problemm anymore anoyway i mean come on the EU along with other European countries that are in it are powerful and wealthy. Why does the USA have to deal with there problems?

The threat from the USSR was our excuse for the continual occupation of Europe. Yet it seems to me  when DeGaule kicked us out of France in 1966, Europe was more than capable of taking care of its self. We did actually pull back a lot of troops while storing tanks, ammo, etc throughout Germany... But we were reluctant to pull out our nuclear weapons which were constantly shuttled all over Europe. We also kept the short range aircraft that can deliver such devices and  turn much of the USSR into rubble.  
But, other than a shorter dilivery time to the M.E.... It seems to be a huge waste of our treasury....

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ORIGINAL: BikerDrew

I am more spiritual than religious.

[quote:]ORIGINAL: Charles Munn
I tend to discount all supersitions but, however minutely, remain open to most possibilities...

Some say i live a sad life when it comes to my ideas on this i believe we are no more than complex life forms that when we die we simply no longer exist except in living things memories.

I strongly suspect you may be correct.

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ORIGINAL:mbz300sdl And what i have written down these forums may oneday be my greatest gift to society.

Hmmmm,  I strongly suspect, like most creatures, I leave no gifts to society. I will have merely enjoyed  and hopefully, for the most part, lived a fearless life and will die the same way...

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Back to all the talk about the oil we (USA and those who need it) have excess food supplies well its obvious that the UN food for oil isnt the best idea so lets try something else. I dont really have much of an idea but i think that is were we should go on that issue even if it does mean bypassing OPEC maybe somehow getting some countries to leave OPEC. Ideas? 

While I talk a lot and write a bit... I'm nearly certain the only influence I have over others... is when I change myself... So for the last couple of years I've been making an effort to use alternative fuels... It's but a drop in the bucket, and  my wife still drives her Lexus gasser.... But who knows... maybe in a couple of years...

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ORIGINAL: Charles Munn

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ORIGINAL: mbz300sdl

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Yet the Taliban was still talking to CIA and a deal was on the table. Had we taken it, we could have had bin Laden, and the Taliban could have had Afghanistan.

I didnt know that do u have a link or somewhere i can read more about it?

I can't remember where I read that, but you're right for calling me on it. I'll continue looking for a link. In the meantime the following shows some of the murky deals that seems to have occurred:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html

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ORIGINALCharles Munn Let the Europeans pick up the tab for Bosnia, etc...

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ORGINAL:mbz300sdl Yeah really y is anything in Europe out problemm anymore anoyway i mean come on the EU along with other European countries that are in it are powerful and wealthy. Why does the USA have to deal with there problems?

The threat from the USSR was our excuse for the continual occupation of Europe. Yet it seems to me  when DeGaule kicked us out of France in 1966, Europe was more than capable of taking care of its self. We did actually pull back a lot of troops while storing tanks, ammo, etc throughout Germany... But we were reluctant to pull out our nuclear weapons which were constantly shuttled all over Europe. We also kept the short range aircraft that can deliver such devices and  turn much of the USSR into rubble.  
But, other than a shorter dilivery time to the M.E.... It seems to be a huge waste of our treasury....

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ORIGINAL: BikerDrew

I am more spiritual than religious.

[quote:]ORIGINAL: Charles Munn
I tend to discount all supersitions but, however minutely, remain open to most possibilities...

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ORIGINAL:mbz300sdl Some say i live a sad life when it comes to my ideas on this i believe we are no more than complex life forms that when we die we simply no longer exist except in living things memories.

I strongly suspect you may be correct.

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ORIGINAL:mbz300sdl And what i have written down these forums may oneday be my greatest gift to society.

Hmmmm,  I strongly suspect, like most creatures, I leave no gifts to society. I will have merely enjoyed  and hopefully, for the most part, lived a fearless life and will die the same way...

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Back to all the talk about the oil we (USA and those who need it) have excess food supplies well its obvious that the UN food for oil isnt the best idea so lets try something else. I dont really have much of an idea but i think that is were we should go on that issue even if it does mean bypassing OPEC maybe somehow getting some countries to leave OPEC. Ideas? 

While I talk a lot and write a bit... I'm nearly certain the only influence I have over others... is when I change myself... So for the last couple of years I've been making an effort to use alternative fuels... It's but a drop in the bucket, and  my wife still drives her Lexus gasser.... But who knows... maybe in a couple of years...

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  The threat from the USSR was our excuse for the continual occupation of Europe. Yet it seems to me  when DeGaule kicked us out of France in 1966, Europe was more than capable of taking care of its self. We did actually pull back a lot of troops while storing tanks, ammo, etc throughout Germany... But we were reluctant to pull out our nuclear weapons which were constantly shuttled all over Europe. We also kept the short range aircraft that can deliver such devices and  turn much of the USSR into rubble.  
But, other than a shorter dilivery time to the M.E.... It seems to be a huge waste of our treasury....

 
France and Britian both have always been strong countries look through history. Of course but with the fall of the wall in 1989 and then Yeltsin in 1991 i'd say we were well suited to leave then. But you are correct as far as the short E.T.A. to the M.E. In a modern war that trip across the Atlantic or Pacific depending on were they are coming from is a long time.
 

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  I strongly suspect, like most creatures, I leave no gifts to society

 
Crude Oil - Gift or Curse? My diesel is now gone everything i have that runs on gas (except my truck that gets started once every 2 months maybe runs) on 91+ Octane gas. So i cant say anything about the Lexus. But i would like another Diesel know anyone that wants a 560sel?  (cheap poke at selling a car )
 

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I will have merely enjoyed and hopefully, for the most part, lived a fearless life and will die the same way... 

 
I have alot of respect for that comment!

It now seems I gave you a valid link
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html
regarding your request to back up my claim that a deal was on the table with CIA and the Taliban.
 
Re:
While Clinton's State Department omitted Afghanistan from the top foreign policy priority list, the Bush administration, beholden to the oil interests that pumped millions of dollars into the 2000 campaign, restored Afghanistan to the top of the list, but for all the wrong reasons. After Bush's accession to the presidency, various Taliban envoys were received at the State Department, CIA, and National Security Council. The CIA, which appears, more than ever, to be a virtual extended family of the Bush oil interests, facilitated a renewed approach to the Taliban. The CIA agent who helped set up the Afghan mujaheddin, Milt Bearden, continued to defend the interests of the Taliban. He bemoaned the fact that the United States never really bothered to understand the Taliban when he told the Washington Post last October, "We never heard what they were trying to say... We had no common language. Ours was, 'Give up bin Laden.' They were saying, 'Do something to help us give him up.' "
There were even reports that the CIA met with their old mujaheddin operative bin Laden in the months before September 11 attacks. The French newspaper Le Figaro quoted an Arab specialist named Antoine Sfeir who postulated that the CIA met with bin Laden in July in a failed attempt to bring him back under its fold. Sfeir said the CIA maintained links with bin Laden before the U.S. attacked his terrorist training camps in Afghanistan in 1998 and, more astonishingly, kept them going even after the attacks. Sfeir told the paper, "Until the last minute, CIA agents hoped bin Laden would return to U.S. command, as was the case before 1998." Bin Laden actually officially broke with the US in 1991 when US troops began arriving in Saudi Arabia during Operation Desert Storm. Bin Laden felt this was a violation of the Saudi regime’s responsibility to protect the Islamic Holy Shrines of Mecca and Medina from the infidels. Bin Laden’s anti-American and anti-House of Saud rhetoric soon reached a fever pitch.
The Clinton administration made numerous attempts to kill Bin Laden. In August 1998, Al Qaeda operatives blew up several U.S. embassies in Africa. In response, Bill Clinton ordered cruise missiles to be launched from US ships in the Persian Gulf into Afghanistan, which missed Bin Laden by a few hours. The Clinton administration also devised a plan with Pakistan's ISI to send a team of assassins into Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden. But Pakistan's government was overthrown by General Musharraf, who was viewed as particularly close to the Taliban. The CIA cancelled its plans, fearing Musharraf's ISI would tip off the Taliban and Bin Laden. . The CIA's connections to the ISI in the months before September 11 and the weeks after are also worthy of a full-blown investigation. The CIA continues to maintain an unhealthy alliance with the ISI, the organization that groomed bin Laden and the Taliban. Last September, the head of the ISI, General Mahmud Ahmed, was fired by Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf for his pro-Taliban leanings and reportedly after the U.S. government presented Musharraf with disturbing intelligence linking the general to the terrorist hijackers.
General Ahmed was in Washington, DC on the morning of September 11 meeting with CIA and State Department officials as the hijacked planes slammed into the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Later, both the Northern Alliance spokesman in Washington, Haron Amin, and Indian intelligence, in an apparent leak to The Times of India, confirmed that General Ahmed ordered a Pakistani-born British citizen and known terrorist named Ahmed Umar Sheik to wire $100,000 from Pakistan to the U.S. bank account of Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker.

Hm I've seen to missed some important parts of this discussion but as far as Germany goes, they are shifting alot of units that are overseas back to the states, which usually mean they are about to deploy yo the ME anyways. I don't think all posts in Germany should close yet, especially the regional medical center here. Casualties get treatment alot faster, especially for critical and life threatening injuries. Trust me, the way they look coming in is not a pretty sight and if I had pictures to send ya I would if I could but lets just say the even the most gruesome war movies make war injuries look clean (especially when they arrive with their limbs laid on their chest), too clean and it saves many lives, not to mention, saves the government money (probably the most important aspect of that center to them.).
But overseas bases will become less and less. The funny thing is, that we pulled troops from the DMZ in Korea and moved the bases to Seoul and below and moved most of the infantry units stateside (who is probably downrange, getting ready to go, or just coming back.)
 
And the taliban is no new issue, but of course money talks and oil is money to alot of people, but we accuse other countries of supporting terrorists and stuff, but we have been doing that for years. I guess the proper term is supporting terrorist that is profitable or beneficial to us is ok, while terrorist that are of no interest to us or do not bring in enough money is bad, as for the countries that supports them for the US can do no wrong because we are the God of this world and everyone must bow down. (serious sarcasm)

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General Ahmed was in Washington, DC on the morning of September 11 meeting with CIA and State Department officials as the hijacked planes slammed into the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Later, both the Northern Alliance spokesman in Washington, Haron Amin, and Indian intelligence, in an apparent leak to The Times of India, confirmed that General Ahmed ordered a Pakistani-born British citizen and known terrorist named Ahmed Umar Sheik to wire $100,000 from Pakistan to the U.S. bank account of Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker.

 
I knew the Clinton administration hired assasins, but didn't hear anything about the connections of General Ahmed, what a suprise. As for your comment of drafting 500,000 republicans, I think that's obsurd. You and I both saw the figures for who supported the war in Iraq, it was 50/50 for a while. People were still angry about 9/11 and wanted revenge from both sides (rep and dem). Later on, the polls were about 25% who favored, most likely republicans. I don't believe republicans honestly wanted to be in the middle east or wanted  Bush in office. The only other reasonable canidate was Kerry who had lied to the people on countless occasions. Republicans weren't the only one's who put him into office, it had to have been a mild number of democrats who saw through Kerry. Personally, I'm neither democratic or a republican, when the race began, I thought that they were both idiots. They never addressed issues straight forward. Clinton was a good president however..

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ORIGINAL: BlackWolf

Hm I've seen to missed some important parts of this discussion but as far as Germany goes, they are shifting alot of units that are overseas back to the states, which usually mean they are about to deploy yo the ME anyways. I don't think all posts in Germany should close yet, especially the regional medical center here. Casualties get treatment alot faster, especially for critical and life threatening injuries. Trust me, the way they look coming in is not a pretty sight and if I had pictures to send ya I would if I could but lets just say the even the most gruesome war movies make war injuries look clean (especially when they arrive with their limbs laid on their chest), too clean and it saves many lives, not to mention, saves the government money (probably the most important aspect of that center to them.).
But overseas bases will become less and less. The funny thing is, that we pulled troops from the DMZ in Korea and moved the bases to Seoul and below and moved most of the infantry units stateside (who is probably downrange, getting ready to go, or just coming back.)

You obviously have on-the-ground-up-to-date-info. In anycase, what ever my politics, as an old lifer, my heart is always with the troops... and in the end.... at the point of the spear... there are no politics... there's only the job... and whatever it takes to get it done.

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And the taliban is no new issue, but of course money talks and oil is money to alot of people, but we accuse other countries of supporting terrorists and stuff, but we have been doing that for years.

 
It's certainly not new to those few who have internet access and bothered to keep themselves informed, or those who happen to be livng or stationed in Europe and get to read and hear a wide spectrum of true world  news from a variety of perspectives, and not merely the pap spoon fed to most US citizens by so-called news people who are little more than 3rd rate actors. 

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 I guess the proper term is supporting terrorist that is profitable or beneficial to us is ok, while terrorist that are of no interest to us or do not bring in enough money is bad, as for the countries that supports them for the US can do no wrong because we are the God of this world and everyone must bow down. (serious sarcasm)

I'd say you nailed it.